Cincar

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Cincar

Post by I'm the 1 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:02 pm

S. tectorum is native to Cincar.

Cincar is a
mountain in the Dinaric Alps of western Bosnia and Herzegovina. The highest peak is the Cincar peak at 2,006 m.
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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:57 pm

Actually Mt. Cincar is a habitat of S. marmoreum

Habitat is mentioned in:
1. Letz R., Vybrané Problémy Taxon. Difer. rodov Semp. a Jovib. v Európe : 184 pp. (1988)
2. Beck von Managetta G.V. ; Flora Bosne, Hercegovine: 55-58 (1923)

source: http://stalikez.info/fsm/semp/site/yougo_gb.php#sm_12

Another reference is the fact that I was there last weekend Very Happy
This is really amazing place with beautiful landscape and wildlife.
Sempervivums are growing in many places and there is also herd of wild horses that I was petting.



This is a typical Sempervivum habitat on the mountain. Below you can see Krug plateau. It's very hard to say where does the mountain ends and plateau begins.
Sempervivum also grow on this plateau, but I will make separate topic about this. Wild horses are mostly on this plateau. 
In the distance you can see Buško jezero, Mt. Kamešnica on the right and Mt. Zavelim in the distance. Both Kamešnica and Zavelim are S. marmoreum habitats. 



Another view from Mt.Cincar in different direction where you can see Glamočko polje. 


And plants of course come in different sizes and colors and that's because of different ecological conditions and genetic variation. 
All plants from this population were glabrous. 












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Re: Cincar

Post by I'm the 1 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:31 am

Wow!  Marko, this is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing with us!
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Re: Cincar

Post by jezour on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:00 pm

Marko, thank You for this wonderful post with beautiful pictures. You saw nice habitats of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum. In what elevation did the Sempervivums grow?
The rosettes are quite open. Did there rain before Your visit? I saw Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum in Biokovo this summer (start of August) and the rosettes were totally closed. They showed, that there did not rain for quite long time and that they want to receive water.
I have one more question. Bosnia and Herzegowina and mines. I want to visit Bosnia and Herzegowina in the future. I am trying to find some information about mine situation there, but I did not find a lot. Was it safe area? Are there any mine fields? Is there some information in the internet about mines in Bosnia and Herzegowina?

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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:05 pm

Amazing place! I wish you could both be with me. Very Happy

I climbed the mountain from the western part, and first Semps (photographed above) were growing on the southern 
exposition. I wrote down elevation (and GPS), but I left it at home. I think it's about 1800m. 

Plants indeed look really open and healthy. We had a lot of rainfall last few weeks, so I suppose there was also raining.
I don't know how do they look during summer, but I've seen pics of plants on Biokovo and they looked really baked. Elevation could be the same, but Bikovo is much closer to mediterranean, so it's possible it's much hotter there (regardless to the similar elevation). 

About the mines, they are everywhere. We saw many signs for minefields and there are many war remains like bunkers or trenches. Mt. Cincar has marked tracks and it would be very wise hold on to them. We climbed up from the western ridge where there are no tracks, but we had experienced guide that was there many times. On the place we started, there was a sign for mines in another direction. I must admit I was a bit scared but I forgot about the mines as soon as I saw first Semps Very Happy
On the other hand, people climb there all the time ,so I wouldn't call this area unsafe. It's a bit of a risk you must decide for yourself, but as I've said before you're much safer if you stick to the marked track. 
Never saw and never really looked for mine maps on internet but I saw one map on the wall in Livno. It was showing minefields and recorded incidents (connected with mines), and
it was really surprising to see many of the incidents were far away from minefields.

It would be really great if we could make expedition together sometimes (if you want). I could  inform you if I go there or in close area again.
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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:08 pm

This wasn't the only population I found on Mt. Cincar. We went down on SE side of the mountain and
there I found more plants. Below Mt. Cincar is Krug mountain/plateau (not sure how to call it).
It's really hard to draw strict line between this two in some parts. First Sempervivums I saw on this side
were much lower than observed population on the mountain (I also have altitude, but I forgot to bring it).
It seems to me that whole Krug is a habitat of S.marmoreum. 

This is a typical habitat on lower parts of the mountain and whole Krug.


First plants that I saw on the way down were the most interested. At first I spotted pilose form of S.marmoreum for the first time 
and than I realized that glabrous form is growing just a few cm's away.


Closer look at glabrous plant


and pilose form






Pilose forms were growing only in small area. Later I found only hairless forms again.


It was very easy to spot them because dried flower stalks were striking everywhere. 




















This time I know I put too much photos, but I've made hundreds of them, so it would be just wrong not to show some of them Smile
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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:26 am

Not only that I found dried flower stalks. I was lucky enough to find few flowering plants or even plants with buds. 
All of the flowering plants were at lower altitudes. 







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Re: Cincar

Post by jezour on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:46 pm

Marko, thank You for next post and for next wonderful pictures.

If I see Your photos, I think, that some rosettes are influenced by S. marmoreum var. marmoreum. I also think, that some rosettes belongs to Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum. I think, that there the plants on the pictures 1711.jpg and a10.jpg belongs to Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum. It is interestring, because the plants from the upper part of mountains belongs 100% to Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum.
Pilose form are very freuquent by Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum, I have not seen that any pilose form by Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum. I mark that pilose forms as Sempervivum marmoreum var. ???, the pilose form is growing together with glabrous form and in some case there is only pilose form on the habitats. Maybe some genetic aberration.

There is one interestring thing on the flowers of S. marmoreum var. dinaricum. Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum has fewer petals than Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum. Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum has mostly from 8 to 11 (also 12) petals, Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum has from 13 to 16 petals.

Biokovo:
In Biokovo, under the peak of Veliki Troglav, I saw this:


I was suprised in Biokovo, because I expected the plants from the elevation about 1600 and higher. I found first plants in the elevation about 1290 meters.

Thank You for the information about mines. Many people from the Czech republic travel to Balcan peninsula, they write about mountains and so on. But the visits of Bosnia and Herzegowina are rare, although there are very beautiful mountains in Bosnia and Herzegowina.

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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:48 am

I must admit that classification of this species is a bit unclear to me.
Could you please explain more difference between S. marmoreum var. marmoreum and 
S. marmoreum var. dinaricum.

I usually use systematics from Urs Eggli's book where both names you used are treated as synonyms
of S. marmoreum subsp. marmoreum. 
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Re: Cincar

Post by jezour on Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:32 am

I try to explain the differences between Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum and Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum.
Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum differs in appearance of the rosettes, shape of rosette leaves and in number of petals.
1) The rosettes of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum have less leaves than the rosettes of Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum. The rosettes of Sempervivum marmoreum in general look like as small bowls. The rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum in the center of the rosette and in the nearby are +/- in the same height. The rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum are a bit otherwise organized. The rosettes leaves in the center of the rosette are low. The leaves in the next row ends always a bit higher than leaves in the row closer to the center of the rosette. Very small rosettes of Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum have conical shape, but the very small rosettes of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum have spherical shape.
2) The rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum are broadest in the upper third. The rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum broaden extensively in the upper third, they ends at once and create tip. Rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum almost do not broaden in the upper third. If yes, then very few. The rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum narrow very slowly, they create very long tip.
3) Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum have in the most cases from (12) 13 to 15 (16) petals. Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum have from (7) 8 to 11 (12) petals in the most cases.
If you see Sempervivum marmoreum var. marmoreum and Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum together in the collection, you probably say, that they are totally different.

I use a bit modified systematics of R. Konop. Systematics in Eggli's book were made by three authors - Zonneveld, Bleij and Hart. There are many and many mistakes in this systematics. I think, that the authors have never seen many plants they are writing about.

Together expedition, thats complicated with me. I can go to the expedition only in July and in August (school summer holidays in CZ), or if there are school holidays in Czech Republic (for example Easter of Christmas). I train children to swim and I must be every evening from Monday to Thurstday in the swimming pool. There are few trainers in swimming in the Czech Republic, I have nobody to deputize for me... But it would be great to do expedition with you!

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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:07 pm

Thank you so much for the explanation! I will try to notice those differences on the field as well as on the plants in the culture.
July and August would be great for expeditions Smile
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Re: Cincar

Post by Marko.D on Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:17 pm

IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ.
As Sempervivums are very charismatic plants, people like to grow them. They are also collected in nature and grown with precise locality data.
 Unfortunately, because of their charisma they are threatened by extinction and that is why plants in natural habitat should be collected only once 
(if population is large enough and if they are not protected). 
From the mentioned location I took few rosettes and brought plants in culture. We all know that these plants are easily propagated and in near future
 I will be able to share this plants with everyone who is interested in growing them. 
Please, that if you visit this location, don't take any new plants from nature. This way you will prevent reduction and extinction of natural population.
Thank you!


WICHTIG! BITTE VORLESEN! 
Die Pflanzen von der Gattung Sempervivum gelten als charismatische Pflanzen, daher züchten die Menschen sie gerne. Menschen sammeln sie sie gerne in 
ihrer wilden Naturumgebung und wachsen diese Pflanzen aus den genauen Standortdaten. Leider wegen ihrer charismatischen Natur, bedroht diesen Pflanzen 
die Vernichtung und deshalb ist es von großer Wichtigkeit, dass diese Pflanzen aus ihrem natürlichen Lebensraum nur einmal gepflückt werden (im Falle, dass 
die Bevolkerung von diesen Pflanzen sehr verbreitet ist und nicht vom Recht geschützt ist). 
Aus der angegebenen Lokation nahm ich ein paar Rosetten und habe sie damit in die Pflanzenkultur eingegeben. Da diese Art von Pflanzen leicht gezeugt wird,
 hoffentlich in der naheren Zukunft werde ich in der Lage sein, an alle die sie gerne gewachsen wollen, zu verteilen. 
Daher bitte ich Sie, wenn Sie diese Lokation besuchen, dass sie keine neuen Pflanzen aus der Naturumgebung mit sich mitnehmen, damit verhindern Sie
 die Reduktion an der Vernichtung dieser pflanzen Bevolkerung.
 Danke!


DŮLEŽITÉ! PROSÍM ČTI. 
Rostliny rodu Sempervivum jsou velice zajímavé a jsou často pěstovány. Také jsou často sbírány v přírodě a někteří je pěstují s přesnými údaji o lokalitě.
 Bohužel jsou některé druhy či lokalitní populace pro jejich atraktivní vzhled ohroženy vyhynutím, a to je důvod, proč by druh/populace na své lokalitě měl
být sbírán pouze jednou (je-li populace dostatečně velká a není-li druh chráněn). 
Z uvedeného místa jsem si přinesl několik rostlin do kultury. Všichni víme, jak se tyto rostliny snadno množí a v budoucnu budu moci uspokojit každého zájemce,
 který má zájem o jejich pěstování.
 Proto prosím, pokud navštívíte toto místo nesbírejte zde nový materiál, vyhnete se tak postupnému decimování či až zániku přirozené populace.
 Děkuji!


VAŽNO! MOLIM VAS PROČITATI.
Kako su Sempervivumi karizmatične biljke, ljudi ih rado uzgajaju. Također ih rado sakupljaju u prirodi, te uzgajaju biljke sa točnim lokacijskim podacima.  
Na žalost, upravo zbog te njihove karizme prijeti im istrebljenje i zato je važno da se biljke iz prirodnog staništa uzmu samo jednom
 (ukoliko je populacija dovoljno velika i nisu zaštićene).
Sa navedene lokacije uzeo sam nekoliko rozeta, te time uveo biljke u kulturu. Kako se ove biljke lako razmnožavaju, u bliskoj budućnosti bit
 ću u mogućnosti dijeliti biljke svima koji ih žele uzgajati. 
Molim Vas, da ukoliko posjetite ovu lokaciju ne uzimate nove biljke iz prirode, te tako spriječite smanjenje i istrebljenje populacije.
Hvala!
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Re: Cincar

Post by jezour on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:16 am

I mention two important thing to cultivate Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum. If you see the natural habitat, it is clear, that there is warm (very warm during the summer) and the plant do not get water during long periods. These two things are very important. It is necessary to cultivate the plant of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum on the warmest places that you have in the garden. The plant react vere sensitive on water. If they are in wet soil for a long time, they start to rot in very short time.

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