Orostachys systematics

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by valleylynn on Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:06 am

I will watch for the new list. : )

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:22 pm

It's done! List of all names and synonyms:

Orostachys aggregata (Makino) Hara (1935) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. aggregata (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys aggregata fa. rosea Sugaya (1956) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. aggregata (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys aggregata var boehmeri (Makino) Ohwi (1953.) (=Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara)
Orostachys aliciae (R.-Hamet) H.Ohba ( =Kungia aliciae var. aliciae )
Orostachys aliciae (R.-Hamet) H.Ohba var. komarovii (Raym.-Hamet) H.Ohba (1999) (=Kungia aliciae var. komarovii (Raymond-Hamet) K. T. Fu (1988))
Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara
Orostachys cartilaginea Borissova
Orostachys chanetii ( H.Leveillé ) A.Berger
Orostachys chlorantha Fischer (1809) (=Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger)
Orostachys chongsunensis Y.N.Lee (2000) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys eburnifolia (It seems this name exists in cultivation only. Synonym for O. erubescens or O. fimbriata)
Orostachys erubescens (Maxim.) Ohwi (1942) (=Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger)
Orostachys erubescens var. japonica (Maximowicz) Ohwi (1953) (=Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger)
Orostachys erubescens var. polycephala (Makino) Ohwi (1953) (=Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger)
Orostachys filifera (Nakai) Nakai (1942) (=Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger)
Orostachys fimbriata (Turcz.) A.Berger var. grandiflora F.Z.Li & X.D.Chen (1989) (Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger)
Orostachys fimbriata (Turcz.) A.Berger var. shandongensis F.Z.Li & X.D.Chen (1989) (Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger)
Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger
Orostachys fimbriata subvar. limuloides (Praeger) H. Jacobsen (1955.) (Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger)
Orostachys fimbriata var. ramosissima (Maximowicz) A.Berger (1930) (Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger)
Orostachys furusei Ohwi (1954) (=Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara)
Orostachys genkaiensis Ohwi (1956) (=Orostachys malacophylla ssp. malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch.)
Orostachys gorovoii Dudkin & S.B.Gontch.
Orostachys iwarenge (Makino) Hara (1935) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys iwarenge (Makino) Hara var. boehmeri (Makino) H.Ohb (1981) (=Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara)
Orostachys iwarenge fa. albomarginata Sugimoto (1958) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys iwarenge fa. albovariegata Sugimoto (1958) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys iwarenge fa. aureomarginata Sugimoto (1958) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys iwarenge fa. luteomedia Sugimoto (1958) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys iwarenge fa. magna Y.N.Lee (2000) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger
Orostachys japonica fa. polycephala (Makino) H. Ohba (1981) (=Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger)
Orostachys jiuhuaensis X.H.Guo & X.L.Liu (1991) (Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger)
Orostachys kanboensis Ohwi (1942) (=Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger)
Orostachys komarovii (Raym.-Hamet) V.V.Byalt (2000) (=Kungia aliciae var. komarovii (Raymond-Hamet) K. T. Fu (1988))
Orostachys latielliptica Y.N.Lee (2000) (=Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger)
Orostachys libanotica (L.) Fisch. (1809) (=Rosularia sp. ??)
Orostachys malacophylla var. aggregata (Makino) H.Ohba
Orostachys malacophylla var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba
Orostachys malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch. var. boehmeri (Makino) H.Hara (1985) (=Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara)
Orostachys malacophylla (Pallas) Fischer
Orostachys malacophylla fa. rosea (Sugaya) H.Ohba (1981) (=Orostachys malacophylla var. aggregata (Makino) H.Ohba)
Orostachys malacophylla ssp. lioutchenngoi H.Ohba
Orostachys malacophylla ssp. malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch.
Orostachys margaritifolius Y.N.Lee (2000) (called O. margaritifolia) (=Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger)
Orostachys maximowiczii V.V.Byalt
Orostachys minuta (Kom.) A.Berger (1930) (?=Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger)
Orostachys minuta (Kom.) A.Berger f. alba Y.N.Lee (1998) (?=Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger)
Orostachys mongolicus (in my opinion it's a wrong name for Orostachys sp. ex Mongolia)
Orostachys paradoxa (A.P.Khokhrakov & Voroschilov) Czerepanov
Orostachys polycephala (Makino) H. Hara (1935) (=Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger)
Orostachys ramosa Y.N.Lee (2000) (=Orostachys malacophylla ssp. malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch.)
Orostachys ramosissimus (Maxim.) V.V.Byalt (1998.) (called O. ramosissima) (Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger)
Orostachys rosea (Less.) A.Berger (1930) (= Orostachys thyrsiflora Fischer ??)
Orostachys saxatilis (Nakai) Nakai (1942) (=Orostachys malacophylla ssp. malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch.)
Orostachys schoenlandii (R.-Hamet) H.Ohba (1978) (=Kungia schoenlandii (Raymond-Hamet) K. T. Fu (1988) )
Orostachys serrata Sweet (1830) (=Orostachys malacophylla ssp. malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch.)
Orostachys sikokiana (Makino) Ohwi (=Meterostachys sikokiana (Makino) Nakai )
Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger
Orostachys stenostachya (Frod.) H.Ohba (1978) (=Kungia schoenlandii var. stenostachya (Fröderström) K. T. Fu (1988))
Orostachys stenostachya var. integrifolia (S.H.Fu) V.V.Byalt (2000) (=Kungia schoenlandii var. stenostachya (Fröderström) K. T. Fu (1988) )
Orostachys stenostachya var. lepidotricha (K.T.Fu) V.V.Byalt (2000) (=Kungia schoenlandii var. stenostachya (Fröderström) K. T. Fu (1988))
Orostachys thyrsiflora Fisch. var. rosea (Lessing) V.V.Byalt (2000) (=Orostachys thyrsiflora Fischer)
Orostachys thyrsiflora Fischer
Orostachys umbilicus Hort.Monac. ex Schrank & Mart. (1829) (= Umbilicus erectus De Candolle)
Orostachys vyschinii T.A.Bezdeleva (1995) (=Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara)


I used mostly these 2 sources:
Urs Eggli: Illustrated handbook of succulent plants: Crassulaceae http://books.google.hr/books?id=xFz8wKRxsAIC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=Orostachys+chlorantha&source=bl&ots=bximVfeTkL&sig=dCUGc4SJmJr0zI6YK4kqphEwgCw&hl=hr&ei=_ILtTPPeF5CcOoCY-WM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Orostachys%20chlorantha&f=false

Fu Kunjun and Hideaki Ohba: CRASSULACEAE, Flora of China http://hua.huh.harvard.edu/china/mss/volume08/CRASSULACEAE.pdf

but I also used other sources of informations. Mostly on internet.

This is a classification combined from both sources. Most important differences in authors are in existing genus Kungia and species O.minuta.

Hope this will be useful! Smile

Marko.D
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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:17 pm

From all that names we got only about dozen of species.

Orostachys boehmeri (Makino) Hara
Orostachys cartilaginea Borissova
Orostachys chanetii ( H.Leveillé ) A.Berger
Orostachys fimbriata (Turczaninow) A.Berger
Orostachys gorovoii Dudkin & S.B.Gontch.
Orostachys japonica (Maxim.) A.Berger
Orostachys malacophylla (Pallas) Fischer
var. aggregata (Makino) H.Ohba
var. iwarenge (Makino) H.Ohba
ssp. lioutchenngoi H.Ohba
ssp. malacophylla (Pall.) Fisch.
Orostachys maximowiczii V.V.Byalt
Orostachys paradoxa (A.P.Khokhrakov & Voroschilov) Czerepanov
Orostachys spinosa (L.) A.Berger
Orostachys thyrsiflora Fischer

But the number depends of the author.
Mr. Ohba thinks that O.minuta should be a species, and Mr. Eggli thinks that genus Kungia
shouldn't exist so he adds 3 more species into genus Orostachys. Who is right? The truth is that only
genetic analysis could give more accurate answer. From the research I've mentioned before it's clear that this
genus will be reorganized (because of polyphyletic origin). For more accurate determination of species using DNA analysis,
more (if not all) suspected species should be included.

There are also names that are used oftenly in cultivation that are not used anymore or don't exist in
taxonomic botany at all.
If you google O.erubescens you will get a lot of pictures. Name O.erubescens is today considered a synonym
of O. spinosa. Most of the plants you get in google search don't look like O. spinosa at all. In fact, they look like O.fimbriata.
Does this means that O.erubescens should be left as a category because it's wrong to put him with O.spinosa or it's possible
that a lot of O. fimbriata in cultivation are wrongly determinated as O.erubescens?

And what is Orostachys mongolicus? I saw this species in collections and even in sale (on internet). I had problems finding
botanists who described this species. There are a lot of plants named Orostachys 'Mongolia', Orostachys sp.f/Mongolia , O.'Mongolei', O. spec. ex Mongolia...
I supposed that name O. mongolicus was created in cultivation.
This plants that include Mongolia in name are sometimes marked as cultivars ('Mongolia') and sometimes Mongolia is locality data (ex Mongolia). Is this the same plant?
It's hard to believe that introduction of plants from Mongolia was only once because that's a big country...

You might also experience from time to time that on asian pages you find something clearly belonging to genus Orostachys, but you've never saw before.
There are also beautiful forms and cultivars and it's practically impossible to contact to the owners because they're korean or japanese...

What a mess!

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by valleylynn on Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:24 pm

Great work Narcoleptic, thank you so much for all the time you spent doing this.

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:59 pm

My pleasure!

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:05 pm

Here is another link for systematic of this genera:

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/search?q=Orostachys
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/search?q=Kungia

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:18 pm

When I speak about unknown species that you see on Asian pages I speak about something like this:

http://postfiles10.naver.net/20110620_121/jcc6516_1308569572049GEhXg_JPEG/DSCN6929.JPG?type=w2

I have found this pic on a Korean blog.

http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=jcc6516&logNo=100130936272&parentCategoryNo=194&viewDate=¤tPage=1&listtype=0

What is this species? Flowers look like Meterostachys shikokianus but leafs are like O.malacophylla (or O. paradoxa or O. maximowiczii). Is this a hybrid?

...

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Jalapeno on Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:32 pm

It sure has characterisics of both, but since "Orostachys" and some "Sedum" plants often et confused, I honestly suppose, it's neither the one nor the other, I guess it's a Sedum hybrid. Could be wrong as well, lately I found out there are some "Orostachys japonica" ssp. differing from their local habit, but this doesn't look typically.

Maybe st. like a "Sedum Spurium" cv. hybrid, some of that look close to the shown picture.

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:14 pm

I guess it could be Sedum.
Do you maybe know can this 2 genera produce hybrids?

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Jalapeno on Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:11 pm

You think of crossing Orostachys with Sedum? Well, sometimes Orostachys are classed with Sedum and you can find this declaration rather concerning the asian forms of Orostachys, which are actually Sedum alike in some parts. But I couldn't find any info or even a proof that plants of both systrematics could be or ever had been crossed. Actually the most information tells about interspecific crossing, most often O. malacophylla, O. iwarenge and very rarely about hybrids of O. spinosa, O. fimbriata and O. minuta or even some O. japonica hybrids without a source of the crossed plants.

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Re: Orostachys systematics

Post by Marko.D on Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:46 pm

Yes I was thinking about Sedum and Orostachys.
I'm pretty sure that ''softer'' species like O. malacophylla, O. boehmerii, O.paradoxa... can't hybridize with species like O.spinosa, O.chanetii, O.fimbriata... because they are genetically very distant.

It's a matter of time when this 2 groups will be botanically separated.
I hope species O.spinosa, O.minuta, O.chanetii, O.japonica, O.fimbriata. O.thyrsiflora will stay in genus Orostachys because name of the genus means mountain spine. This is a group of species that have spines on leaf tips and this would only make sense.

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Re: Orostachys systematics

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