S. kindingerii

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S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:40 pm

I would like to mention the original habitat. The original habitat of Sempervivum kindingeri is very mysterious.

Why?
1. There are not so much information about it. Big part of information is incorrect.
2. Nobody has found the original habitat.

Sempervivum kindingeri was discribed by Adamovič in year 1904. The is one sentence about the habitat:
In fissuris rupium regionis calidioris infra Veles et Zelenikovo.

There is one incorrect record in literature - Vlahčani (or Vlakčani). We can find this record in literature since year (I think) 1950. But it is wrong. How can grow it by Vlahčani, if the plants was not found there?

My opinion:
The habitat must be in valley of the river Vardar between Zelenikovo and Beleštevica (village N of Veles), if it exists. The habitat should be in lower parts of the valley - the upper part are very dry.

What do you say?

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:01 am

As far as I know the firts plant of the species was collected by Kindinger in Vlakčani between Veleš and Zelenikovo and described in 1903 (or 1904) as a species by Adamić.

Lujo Adamovič is a Serbian botanist (1864-1935).

Maybe this original habitat is destroyed?

Sempervivum kindigeri was recently found growing in the valley of river Pčinja, in Macedonia, former Yugoslav Republic.

River Pčinja is 128 km long river between Serbia and Macedonia, the left tributary to Vardar River.

If anyone reading this, especially people from Macedonia has this Sempervivum for sale, please contact me, I am interested in buying it for my collection.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:45 am

I think the original habitat is not destroyed. There live not so many people in this area. The agriculture is not extensive.

I have found the original description of this Sempervivum - http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/31079#167 - page 125

But there is not the record about Vlakčani and about the river Pčinja. Where do you find it? It is interestring, I would like to explore this area in the future.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:36 am

As for the Vlakčani habitat, I've found the record here:

http://stalikez.info/fsm/semp/site/dwnld/ssj/ssj7_2.pdf

But I really can not recall where I got the datas on river Pčinja - might as well be a Mecesonian page, sorry!

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:29 pm

I think, the Vlakčani is wrong. We have explored (with colleagues) the area near "Vlakčani". Vlakčani should be two train tunnels near Veles (north of Veles). But there is no houseleek on these rocks.

In the origininal description is the sentence in Latin (mentioned above) - it means: In rocky dry terrain, between Veles and Zelenikovo. The preposition is diffucult to translate - it can mean below this towns (S of it) or in lower locations.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:29 pm

I'm sorry I can not help you with this. But I do not beleive Vlakćani is a name of a tunnel - this must be a name of a place, a village or so ... I will go & see if I can buy an exact road map of Macedonia here.

Do you know that there are reports of S. kindingeri be native to Serbia, too? The article was published in Serbia 1995 and I'm still trying to get it ...

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by joop huyslook on Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:37 pm

It is a fact that the original description of Semp. kindingeri does not mention a place called Vlakčani or Vlahčani.
The information about the habitat, already cited by our friend Jezour, says: In fissuris rupium regionis calidioris infra Veles et Zelenikovo, which litterally means: (growing) in rock fissures of the rather hot region below Veles and Zelenikovo. The translation given by Praeger in his "Account of the Sempervivum group" (1932, page 83-84) is wrong. He writes "between Veles and Zelenikova."
In Latin the word for between is inter; infra means below or beneath.
Of course, the location given by Adamović, provided by Kindinger, is very imprecise. The distance between Veles and Zelenikovo is roughly 25 km, as the crow flies (in a straight line). It will not be easy to find Sempervivum kindingeri there, over such a large area.


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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:53 pm

I wouldt like to try to find the original habitat of this species. That is why I am interestred in this problem. My friends have done free attempst to find the habitat - unsuccessfully. This year I visited these places with them - the outcome of the searching was unsuccessfull too.

There is no village or place with name Vlahčani or Vlakčani. The road map does not help us. We have detect from vernacular, that Vlahčani is name for two railway tunnels.

Joop, thank you for the translation. I can not Latin, I translated it with the on-line dictionary.
The Praeger's translation need not to be fully wrong. Praeger means the same area like Adamovič and Kindinger.
The original habitat could exist. And the chance to find it is quite big. Why?
We can take out the area from railway station Žinzifov to Veles - we have explored it and there are no Sempervivums. The rest of area is from Taor (N of Zelenikovo) to the railway station Žinzifov (and plus the area by the river Pčinja from Badar to the confluence the river with Vardar). Then - the habitat must be in the valleys of these rivers. Why? The higher part of the valley and the parts up on the valleys are totaly dry - without houseleeks. There is colder climate in the valleys. And now is the area for research not so big.
But it is only my hypothesis on basis of this, what I have seen in this area.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by joop huyslook on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:04 pm

Well, Praeger's translation is, strictly taken, wrong, but a location below Veles and Zelenikovo implies that it also is between the two places. Jezour, you have seen the area. Is it possible to go down from the street level towards the river? The original description implies that you should search there!
I searched through Adamovič's paper, to see if he possibly mentions any plants that grow together with Semp. kindingeri, but there are none. There is Matthiola valesica var. macedonica "on rocks in the canyon between Veles and Zelenikovo" (translated from German) and Calamintha patavina var. kindingeri, growing "between Veles and Zelenikovo" (from Latin). Muscari pulchellum grows "on rocky hills near Veles and Zelenikovo" (from Latin), Vicia narbonensis "in the fields around Veles and Zelenikovo" (from Latin) and Lysimachia atropurpurea var. kindingeri "in streams near Veles and Zelenikovo" (fr. Latin).

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:21 pm

Yes, it is possible to go down to the river Vardar. There are paths and couple of ways.
We have explored the right shore of Vardar from the hills by Buzalkovo to railwaystation Žinzifov. But only I was 4 metres upon the river Vardar.

The countryside near railwaystation Žinzifov (I have also explored the rocks by the railway)


I was only the main researcher of the "expedition". Not driver, I was decided, that we explored the rock south of railwaystation Žinzifov. I have these ideas now, after I have seen the countryside. That is why I would like to explore the area between Taor and railwaystation Žinzifov and from Badar to the confluence of river Pčinja with Vardar. I know, that nobody searched there.
If the original habitat exists, it must be there!

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by illustrator on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:39 am

Renata wrote:If anyone reading this, especially people from Macedonia has this Sempervivum for sale, please contact me, I am interested in buying it for my collection.

Golob-Klančič has a plant labelled as kindingeri in their collection. If you plan to go there, please get 2, I would like to give it a try as well.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:19 am

I'm buying plant ex valley of Pčinja River, not just plain old S. kindingerii!

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by illustrator on Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:55 pm

Well, as I understand it kindingerii must have a very small, probably also fragmented distribution, if it is so difficult to find. There is at leats one clone in general cultivation: from where is this? From the type-locality? Probably no-one knows for sure.

But if the distribution is very small, there might not be much difference between the plants from the type-locality and those from valley of Pčinja River, in fact, the difference might be similar to that between two clones of the same locality. (In a similar case: it does not matter of a pittonii is with or without locality data because all are from the same locality anyway!)

And if the plant (subspecies, form or any taxa) has such a limited distribution, the clones which are already in cultivation become very interesting for me, also if many people grow them. I just hope that a thread like this one does not develop into a threath to a small population somewhere ...

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:48 pm

I've bought a map today, but unfortunately it is not detailed enough to figure out anything on Vlakćani / Vlahćani.

All I know is that there is 23 km from Zelenikovo to Veles, the railway goes along river Vardar.


The site of Macedonian Railway is in Macedonian language only and it will take me ages before I figure out the train stations between Zelenikovo and Veles.

However, I have not found a place (village, small city) named Vlahćani / Vlakćani yet.

I am more and more convinced that Vlakčani / Vlahčani or Vlakćani / Vlahćani is NOT a name of a settlement. Might it be a name of a hill?


Oh, what a mess...


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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:06 pm

Vlahčani should be a name for two railwaytunnels. That say the people, who live there.

It is not a name for hill, village.

The interestring area for us begins by Taor (valley of river Vardar) and ends by village Beleštevica and by river Pčinja begins by Badar and ends with the confluence of these rivers.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:56 am

In Slovenia we name tunnels by name of the hill they go under or by the name of the nearest settlement. I beleive it is pretty much the same in the rest of former Yugoslavia. Vlahčani / Vlakćani is not a Macedonian name, it sound to me more like Serbian ... Don't ask me why, it's just so!

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:05 am

More than map can say GoogleEarth. It is unreal, but this area is in very high quality there.

I personally do not believe the name Vlahčani. The habitat must be in the valley between places mentioned above. I think, the original habitat exists, but it requires approximately four days the survey there.

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by I'm the 1 on Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:22 am

Right now I am trying to solve the geographical names in that area. It is a hard nut to crack.

According to my knowledge in Zelenikovo municipality there are 14 villages:

Dejkovec - Дејковец
Dobrino - Добрино

Gradovci - Градовци
Gumalevo - Гумалево

Novo Selo - Ново Село
Orešani - Орешани

Pakoševo - Пакошево
Paligrad - Палиград
Smesnica - Смесница
Strahodjadica - Страхојадица
Taor - Таор

Tisovica - Тисовица
Vražale - Вражале
Zelenikovo - Зелениково


In Veles municipality there are following villages:

Bašino Selo
Beleštevica
Buzalkovo
Crkvino
Čaloševo
Djidimirci
Dolno Kalaslari
Dolno Orizari
Gorno Kalaslari
Gorno Orizari
Ivankovci
Karabunjište
Krušje
Kumarino
Lugunci
Mamutčevo
Novačani
Novo Selo
Oraovec
Otovica
Raštani
Rlevci
Rudnik
Slivnik
S'lp
Sojaklari
Sopot

Strange enough is that a train that leaves from Zelenikovo to Veles, seems not to stop in any of this villages. Train goes by the riverbank of Vardar. Train stops have names like:

Zelenikovo

K. Reka
Lapovo
Puinja
R. Žinžifov == Rajko Žinžifov (this is a person's name!)

Veles

Oh, dear, I've found it!!!!



Railwail station Rajko Žinžifov has following aka's (also known as):

- Rajko Zinzifov,
- Rajko Žinzifov,
- Stanica Rajko Zinzifov,
- Stanica Rajko Žinzifov,
- Zeleznicka stanica Vlahcane,
- Železnička stanica Vlahčane

Želežnička stanica means literary RAILWAY STATION.

Vlahčane is NOT a name of village, nor a hill / mountain, it is a name of railway station.



A satelite view is here:
http://www.satelliteviews.net/cgi-bin/w.cgi?c=mk&UF=-93784&UN=-147049&DG=RSTN

It is near village S'lp and some 2 km away from Sopot.

Correct name is VLAHČANE, incorrect Vlahčani, Vlahćani, Vlakčane and Vlakćani.

Hm, "hard work" did pay out! lol!

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by joop huyslook on Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:46 pm

Good detective work, Renata! But always bear in mind that the original description from 1904 does not mention Vlahčane. Perhaps the railway and the stations were built later??
If I understand it correctly, Vlahčane is very close to Veles. Why then Kindinger did not say that this Sempervivum grows below Veles instead of stating that it grows below Veles and Zelenikovo, a range of 23 km, as Renata established.
Furthermore, it would be interesting to know where and by whom the location Vlahčane was first mentioned in literature. Jezour mentions the year 1950. Do you have more details, Jezour?

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Re: S. kindingerii

Post by jezour on Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:21 pm

Renata - wonderful detective work!

My friends have explored the area around this station, but Sempervivum kindingeri does not grow there.

I have found Vlahčani in Sempervivum Society magazine, but my friend told me, that they have found it in literature around year 1950. Althougt I ask them to send me copy of that, they have not sent it.

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